Questions for the “Never Not Justified” Preachers

Here are some questions for the “never not justified” preachers

1. After Christ’s death is imputed to you, are your sins still sins?

2. Do you think Christ’s death was imputed to you as soon as Christ died and before Christ was raised from the dead?

3. Do you think your sins were not imputed to you as soon as your sins were imputed to Christ, and was this before Christ died?

4. If “eternity” was before time, how is “eternity” now in the past?

5. If Abraham’s sins were imputed to Abraham even while Abraham was justified and if Abraham’s sin were only NOT imputed to Abraham when those sins were imputed to Christ. do you think that none of your sins have ever been imputed to you?

6. Do you think your sins were imputed to Christ when Christ was conceived? If so, does this mean that you were justified when Christ became also human?

7. Do you think that your sins were imputed to Christ just before Christ began to pray in the garden? If so, does this mean that you were justified just before Christ began to pray in the garden?

8. Do you think that your sins were imputed to Christ just before the three hours of darkness? If so, does this mean that you were justified before Christ died on the cross?

9. If you were justified before Christ died, why did Christ need to die?

10. If Christ satisfied God’s justice for the sins of the elect in three hours of infinite suffering, why did Christ need to become incarnate (or was Christ human but not mortal)?

11. Do you know if anybody agrees with all of your answers to the ten question above?

12. If nobody agrees with your answers, does that mean your answers are wrong or does it mean that the questions don’t matter?

Smeaton, Atonement As Taught By Himself, p 78—The Son of God took sin upon Him, and bore it simultaneously with the taking of the flesh, nay, in a sense even prior to the actual fact of the incarnation. The peculiar character of the Lord’s humanity, which was, on the one hand, pure and holy, and yet, on the other, a curse-bearing humanity, plainly shows that in some sense He was the sin-bearer from the moment of His sending, and, therefore, even prior to His actual incarnation.

Smeaton–And when it is said that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin condemned sin in the flesh, we have the very same thing…Sin was borne by God, not alone in the sense of forbearance, but in such a sense that it was laid on the sin-bearer, to be expiated by the divine Son. Thus the Lamb of God appeared without inherent sin or taint of any kind, but never without the sin of others. The sin of man was not first imputed to Him or borne by Him when He hung on the cross, but in and with the assumption of man’s nature, or, more precisely, in and with His mission.

Smeaton–The very form of a servant, and His putting on the likeness of sinful flesh, was an argument that sin was already transferred to Him and borne by Him; and not a single moment of the Lord’s earthly life can be conceived of in which He did not feel the harden of the divine wrath which must otherwise have pressed on us for ever.
Because He bore sin, and was never seen without it, it may be affirmed that the mortality which was comprehended in the words, “Thou shalt surely die”—that is, all that was summed up in the wrath and curse of God,—was never really separated from Him. As the sin-bearer, He all through life discerned and felt the penal character of sin, the sense of guilt, not personal, but as the surety could realize it, and the obligation to divine punishment for sins not His own, but made His own by an official action. They who evacuate of their true significance these deep words, “ bears the sins” will not have Christ as a sin-bearer.

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11 Comments on “Questions for the “Never Not Justified” Preachers”

  1. markmcculley Says:

    Bill Parker, What is a Christian, Reign of Grace, 2016—

    p 138—“The wrath of God has never been on God’s elect personally.”

    Parker thinks the only salvation is the new birth, not justification.—even though the ot elect did not know it, they were born justified.

    Bill teaches that all infants who die (or who were born mentally challenged (what about those who became mentally challenged later in life>), even though they are not born again, are not ever under God’s wrath merely because of Adam’s guilt imputed. p 34

    If none of the elect are ever under the wrath of God in Adam, salvation by the new birth is only evidence that they were always justified.

  2. markmcculley Says:

    Vickers translates 5:12 as follows: “Therefore, just as through one man sin came into the world, and death came through sin, so in this way death spread to all men on account of which condition all sinned” (124, emphasis his).In other words, the condition of death, resulting from Adam’s sin, leads to all people committing personal sin. Vickers rejects the idea that “each person is guilty of Adam’s actual sin” (140 n. 106) Thus the ground for the sinfulness of humanity…rests upon the situation that resulted from Adam’s sin” (140).

    The biggest problem with Vickers’ view is that, if Paul is referring to the sin of individuals in 5:12, and if that sin in some way leads to their condemnation, doesn’t that leave the door open for understanding our individual acts of righteousness as in some way playing a part in our justification? The problem here is inserting personal sin into a context that repeatedly refers to the sin of “one man.” In this regard, Vickers appeals to 5:14 as a clear reference to personal sin. He says, “Even if personal sin is excised from verse 12 there is still an unavoidable reference to it in verse 14.” But this reading of v. 14 misses Paul’s point in vv. 12-14 and weakens the case for imputation.

    In 5:13, Paul uses the language of “imputing”: “for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law” (NASB). In other words, Paul is saying that, until the Law comes, “sin” is not charged to people’s account. It is only when the Law comes, and sin becomes “transgression,” this it is legally charged. He made a similar point in 4:15: “For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.” Yet, Paul goes on to say in 5:14, that does not mean that all who lived before the Law was given go through life blissfully innocent. They die and face condemnation: “Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” But if their sin was not reckoned to their account, how can they be condemned?

    There is only one answer: Adam’s sin was imputed to them. Paul’s point in 5:14, then, is not to draw attention to the personal sin of those who lived after Adam. It is, rather, to highlight the reality of death and how all who do not commit “transgression” face death. Death/condemnation is because of Adam’s sin imputed to all. If, indeed, this is Paul’s point, “all sinned” in 5:12 most logically refers to the legal reality that all sinned when Adam, their representative, sinned. It also primes the reader to understand the rest of chapter 5 in terms of the imputation of Christ’s righteousness

    :http://www.reformation21.org/shelf-life/jesus-blood-and-righteousness.php

    • markmcculley Says:

      Romans 5: 9 Much more then, since we have NOW been declared righteous by His BLOOD (death), we WILL BE saved through Him from wrath.

      Romans 5: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

      In reaction to justification conditioned on the sinner, some Lutherans are teaching that all sinners are now born justified. In reaction to justification conditioned on the sinner, some “sovereign grace” preaches are teaching that God’s wrath is never personally on elect sinners.

      Romans 5 does not specifically say that “all sinned in Adam”. Nor does the chapter ever use the word “imputation”. But the sin of verse 12 is not the result of death. The death is the result of “because all sinned”. We look to the context to see how it is that the “all” sinned. “All” sinned because of the representative sin of Adam.

      Adam was our substitute. We don’t need to sin ourselves to be condemned to death. We are condemned to death because Adam sinned for us, as our representative. We are not guilty based on our corruption. Corruption is mediated to us because we are guilty. We sin but before that we were already constituted sinners.

      Romans 5:13 “for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.”

      It’s not only infants who died who did NOT sin like Adam. Everybody who died after Adam’s first sin but before the Mosaic law was given did NOT sin like Adam. Yet because of Adam’s sin and Adam’s representation, all these people died.

      Not all born in Adam stay in Adam
      all chosen in Christ are born in Adam
      not all born in Adam are chosen in Christ
      some born in Adam stay in Adam
      some born in Adam are justified in Christ

      Romans 6 describes two legal states, one of which is “free from righteousness”. Christ’s death has not always been credited to elect sinners. Every elect sinner was once “free from righteousness”. God will not accept us into His presence based on something in us, not even based on something God has put in us. If we have not yet been legally justified by God, we are “free from righteousness”. Romans 6 defines being in “new man” (the new creation) in terms of God legally being placed into the death of Christ. Once God credits us Christ’s death, we sinners are justified before God.

      Romans 6: 4 Therefore we were buried with Him by BAPTISM INTO DEATH….5 For if we have been joined with Him in the likeness of His death, we will certainly also be[ in the likeness of His resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that sin’s dominion over the body be abolished, IN ORDER that we no longer be enslaved to sin, 7 since a person who has died has been justified from sin. ”

      Christ was under law , Christ is no longer under law

      Adam’s guilt is imputed to the elect until Christ’s death is imputed to the elect.

      The elect in Christ are under condemnation until God justifies them.

      The elect in Christ are under law until the elect are under grace

      Christ was under law , Christ is no longer under law but Christ is still not under grace because Christ’s death satisfied the law.

  3. markmcculley Says:

    The word Imputation in the Bible describes two different actions. Fist, sometimes the word imputation describes the transfer, the legal sharing of what belongs to another. Second, the word imputation describes God’s declaration about persons who legally share in either Adam’s condemnation or Christ’s death.

    Elect sinners are born personally under the wrath of God, guilty in Adam. As soon as God credits these sinners with Christ’s death, God at once also declares them justified. Elect sinners need to be justified. Elect sinners are justified by God putting them legally in Christ’s death. Elect sinners are justified when God declares them to be just because of having placed them into Christ’s death. God says they are now justified because they really are now legally just because of now being in Christ’s death.

    Romans 5:9 “Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.” The elect were born guilty, condemned, not justified. The righteousness by which the elect reign and which leads to life is not what God works in us. The righteousness by which the elect reign is Christ’s death imputed. Like they once legally shared in Adam’s act of sin, now the justified elect legally share in Christ’s one act of righteousness.

    Guilt to Adam, then corruption. Righteousness to the elect, then regeneration. So many people have that wrong, even people who believe in sovereign predestination. Augustine, for example, thinks of sovereign regeneration as the righteousness. But we “federalists” say that it would NOT be just for God to give us corruption from Adam until first God legally gave us Adam’s guilt. We are born unable to please God because we are born guilty. We are born “free from righteousness” beca

  4. markmcculley Says:

    A W Pink– Christ prayed— “I have glorified You on the earth, I have finished the work which You gave Me to do” (John 17:4). God’s owning of Christ as “My righteous Servant” signifies that Christ completely executed the work entrusted to Him—as the Holy Spirit declares, He “was faithful to Him who appointed Him” (Hebrews 3:2).

    Christ is the righteous Redeemer of his people only because their righteousness was earned and obtained by Christ’s death while on earth. Christ obtained a perfect righteousness for them, which, upon their believing in Him, is imputed to their account, and therefore Christ is designated “the Lord our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:6).

    Christ was righteous—not as a private Person, not for Himself alone—but for elect sinners and their salvation. Consequently God is not only gracious—but “just” at the same time. In the righteous Redeemer, we find the answer to the question, “How can those who have no righteousness of their own, and who are utterly unable to earn any—become righteous before God? How can I, who am guilty, draw near unto the ineffably Holy One—and look up into His face in peace?” Only by coming to God as unrighteous, acknowledging my inability to remove my unrighteousness, offering nothing to propitiate Him. Because elect sinners were unable to reach up to the holy requirements of righteousness—God has brought down His righteousness to them, “I bring near My righteousness” (Isaiah 46:13).

  5. markmcculley Says:

    how did Adam sin in the first place without being a corrupt sinner?
    i don’t know
    but I do know that Jesus became also human and is still also human
    without ever sinning or even being able to sin
    “being able to sin ” does not define “human” to be “human” is to be “in the image of God”

  6. markmcculley Says:

    I am not trying to put words in persons’ mouths, I m trying to think through the logic of how and why “Christ died according to the Scripture” Does God impute your future sins to Christ before you even do the sins? if so, can God impute Christ’s death to you even before Christ died? If “time gaps” result in “fake justice”, why do you even need Christ’s death ever imputed to you? Are you not justified as soon as your sins are imputed to Christ? Once your sins are imputed to Christ, they are His problem, whether He ever dies to pay for them or not. Why must the payment be imputed to you, as long as your sins are not imputed to you?

  7. markmcculley Says:

    Christ is the One God “made to be sin”. By imputation in time, Christ (God the Son) came under God’s wrath because of sins imputed to Christ. Since we know that Christ Himself is not only God but also God’s elect “special loved one”, how could we possibly say that Christ was ever “really” under the law, so that Christ “had to” die for sins? Since His resurrection was predestined, is it His death (or the satisfaction of justice) something that really matters? Is the “propitiation” fake, since God’s plan has already determined how successfully things will turn out?
    Sins are no longer imputed to Christ, because Christ’s death satisfied for them. God having already decided everything does not mean that everything has already happened God is the kind of God who “demands death and justice” (even from Christ in time and space)
    I Peter 1: 20 Christ was chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the ages for those who through Christ are believers in God

    Did God love the elect because Christ was going to die for them, or did Christ die for the elect because God first loved the elect? The answer is that God’s love comes first, but in order for God to transfer those whom God loves from being under wrath in Adam to being safe in Christ’s death, the justice of Christ’s death is necessary in order for God to accomplish what God’s love purposes.

    I John 4: 10 Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that God loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

  8. markmcculley Says:

    believing the gospel is something a sinner does—God does not believe for any sinner but causes some sinners to believe and to keep believing the gospel.
    all sinners are commanded to believe the gospel
    yet no sinner can believe the gospel until they are born again
    yet no sinner can know that they are born again until they believe the gospel
    a sinner can believe the gospel before they know they are justified
    no sinner is justified before God who does not yet believe the gospel

    Andrew Fuller teaching a time lag between “regeneration” and faith. :
    “The author of Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners (Abraham Booth) is decidedly averse from all holy disposition of the heart preceding faith Abraham Booth considers the sinner an enemy to God at the time of his being justified. To be consistent, Booth must consider faith as having no holiness in its nature.
    Abraham Booth:”While a sinner is either stupidly inattentive to his immortal interests, or expecting justification by his own obedience, he will not come to Christ. It should seem, then, that aversion of heart from the gospel plan, or a desire to be justified by one’s own obedience, is no objection to coming to Christ; and that a sinner will come to him, notwithstanding this, provided that his conscience sufficiently alarmed. If so, there certainly can be nothing spiritual or holy in the act of coming.”

    On the same side with Andrew Fuller?, Popham and Gadsby (hints of regeneration before believing the gospel) against Abraham Booth (all sinners are commanded to believe the gospel?

    “In Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” — 1 Corinthians 4:15.

    “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures” — James 1:18.

    “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever” — 1 Peter 1:23.

    Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

  9. markmcculley Says:

    Genesis 1:: 31 God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.

    Genesis 2: 24 a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.

    Genesis 3: 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves. 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and they hid themselves from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

    What was the human relationship to God like before sin? Did God impute Adam as good and holy and righteous before Adam sinned?
    Did Adam walk with the humans in the garden before this time when they hid themselves and were afraid of God after they sinned?

    There are two senses of “imputation”. After something happens, God counts it as having happened. After Adam sinned, God declared Adam guilty. Before God imputed Adam’s sin to all other humans, first God imputed Adam’s sin to Adam.

    In a parallel way, God imputed Christ righteous after Christ died for the sins of the elect which had been imputed to Christ. God imputed Christ righteous because Christ by His act of obedience had paid for all the sins imputed to Him. God no longer imputed the sins of the elect to Christ after Christ’s death had paid for all those sins. Christ earned His righteousness.

    Romans 6:9 Christ, having been raised from the dead, will not die again. Death no longer rules over Him. 10 In light of the fact that Christ died, Christ died to sin once for all time.

    The imputation of righteousness to Christ is one and the same thing as the non-imputation of sins to Christ. The imputation of Christ’s death to the elect when they are justified is one and the same thing as the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the elect when they are justified. . The imputation of righteousness to the elect when they are justified is one and the same thing as the non-imputation of sins to the elect when they are justified.

    Romans 4: David speaks of the blessing of the man God CREDITS RIGHTEOUSNESS TO apart from works:

    7 How joyful are those whose lawless acts are forgiven
    and whose sins are covered!
    8 How joyful is the person
    the Lord does not impute with sin (Psalm 32)


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